雕塑《朴》系列作品的访谈

雕塑《朴》系列作品的访谈

Group Interview on the “Pu” Sculpture Series

吴洪亮:北京画院美术馆馆长
Wu Hongliang, Director of Art Museum of Beijing Fine Art Academy

唐尧:《中国雕塑》副主编 策展人
Tang Yao, Deputy Editor of China Sculpture, Curator

潘松:中国雕塑学会艺术创作部部长 副教授
Pan Song, Director of Art Creation Department, China Sculpture Institute, Associate Professor

地点:798中国雕塑学会沙龙
Venue: 798 China Sculpture Institute Salon

时间:2011.11.26
Time: 26 Nov., 2011

唐尧:
        我觉得潘松的《朴》系列,对他而言,是一个全新的方向,是走向一个更语言本体、更结构化的方向,更强调的是一种结构关系和空间语言,并通过塑造的肌理,把这种空间语言带入了一个时间的范畴。这些作品的肌理不是翻制的,而是用塑造的语言去模拟的一种千年的时间的肌理。

        然后,我觉得潘松这个《朴》系列有一个重要的东西,就是这个语境来源于中国传统的榫接和斗拱的建筑语言,包括在这个过程中你一直在练习的书法。它很鲜明地呈现出一种东方式的意象。比如说去五台山佛光寺,看到那种大型的唐代斗拱的浑厚,那种力度,那种量感;山西大同上下华严寺,那个斗拱比唐代晚很多了,但看起来还是那种很雄壮的感觉。这就使你这样的一种空间构成有别于西方现代主义的一些结构和构成主义的东西,而植根于我们非常深远的和优秀的民族传统,包括书法和建筑。我觉得这是一个有巨大潜力的发展方向,而且在这个当中,我比较喜欢的是它还有一些突兀的变化,不是说在表象上单纯地去再现比如说燕尾榫、斗拱的形式,而是有一些突兀的变化,带出一点超现实的感觉来,带出一些出人意料的东西。它在一个非常稳定的、恒久的结构当中,产生意想不到的对比和变化。我觉得《朴》系列让你爆发出很大的创作能量,也可以向着一个更为广阔的方向去展开,这种展开的可能性实际上还有很多。

Tang Yao:
        I think Pan Song’s “Pu” Series, as far as he is concerned, is a brand-new orientation which is more language-based, more structuralized, with more emphasis on structure relationship and space language that is ushered into a concept of time by means of sculpture texture which is, instead of a replica, to duplicate textures of ages in sculpture language.

        An important element worth mentioning of Pan Song’s “Pu” Series is its language adopted is originated from traditional Chinese structures like tenon-and-mortise work and bucket arches as well as the Chinese calligraphy he’s been practiced all the time, which unfold sharply in front of us an oriental image. Consider Foguang Temple in Mt. Wutaishan. The large-scale bucket arches of Tang Dynasty there are impressively spectacular with power and grandeur. Another example is found in the Upper and Lower Huayan Temple in Datong, Shanxi Province, where the bucket arches, though built much later than Tang Dynasty, equally impressed us with remarkable majesty. Deeply rooted in our far-reaching and profound Chinese traditions such as calligraphy and national construction, your space constitution is obviously different from those in the modern west, which I believe is an orientation of great potential. Pan Song’s works do not merely imitate the forms of dovetail tenon-and-mortise or bucket arches, but initiated some changes which are kind of super-realistic and unexpected, which is to create surprising changes and contrasts in a rather stable and sustainable structures. I believe “Pu” series have stimulated your gifts and energy which will enable you to broaden your view and creative field.

吴洪亮:
        看了作品后,我觉得《朴》系列是一种建筑感的东西,虽然他选的斗拱这些是建筑体的元素,从这里得到启发的艺术家还是有一些的,但是潘松是能把这种状态做的有建筑感,这是另外的一件事,就是说,他没有截取一截斗拱,因为简单截取很会象工艺美术品。潘松从建筑体里头生发出这种信息或者说这种灵感,熔化成一个雕塑的过程,其实是把这种建筑中的这种力量重新做解读的,这是在里面我最直接的感受。再有呢,我们都有一个理想,所有艺术家都有一个理想,做一个小的作品,一个架上的作品,会有一个大的感受,这个作品就有成功的可能性。很多作品做的很大却小里小气,这是经常会遇到的,尤其架上雕塑,它的分量不够。这组作品你会感受到它有很强的质量感,因为它的厚度足够厚了,而且在整体厚度之外,我们再看整体的空间,这种空间的质量感受。在空间感受之外,潘松注意到了细节,刚才唐老师说的是以一种逆思维的方法来完成的,一般做雕塑我们就直接用泥捏,翻制,再放在那,这是一般雕塑的玩法。你是把这个概念倒过来,做成硬材料,再用刀把它刻出来,再把它雕下去,因为这个过程,手工感立时就进去了,因为直线的穿插是很容易工艺化的,但是如何解决简单化的问题呢?你是用刻的方法把它刻下来,这样的话手工的感觉就出来了。这就和我们直接切几块木头进行组合的所谓现代雕塑之间拉开了距离,就和我们现代西方大师的直接钢板切割、直接的柱形体的组装之间,加注了一些温润的部分,作为一件创作,它就有可看的地方。还有就是拥有很强烈的东方审美的意识,而且接触到了你比较推崇的这种汉唐之风,这是从宋以后,中国人越来越进入以文人情境状态之前的,可以说前文人状态的中国人的审美意识,从这些作品里,我们可以感受到。中国人一直说,你的创造是什么呢?中国人一直想创造的传承性,传承性里头,比如说齐白石,传承的是什么呢?齐白石传承的是明清,他到青藤、八大那就已经追得很远了。但是有些人直追宋人,那么,潘松呢,追的是汉唐,就是你在找我们习惯的文人意识之前的部分,它还有一些原始的野性,一些包容的能量,一些雄浑的力量感。这批作品在今天和今天当下的艺术之间的一些意识呈现,包括手段的磨合,这里头还是有很多有趣的,可以发掘的因素。

        其实从我个人角度讲,跟唐老师同样感觉就是,看好这个方面的发展,可发展性比较大,但它难度也很大,因为简单的组合,你如何的让它更加千变万化?你如果说一个系列的作品,能做十件、二十件、三十件,那就说明它的这个题材或者说方向的包容性、可变性和丰富性足够,就看你自己的能量是不是能把其建构起一个全新的体系,就像中国所谓的笔墨一样,你建构的成功表现在找到了一种你个性化能彰显出来的程式,而且这种东西很东方,其实是现在最有价值的,因为我们今天做的雕塑语言本身不是东方语言,而在这里面你找到与东方的心态、意境、追求相一致,相契合的语言,那就是成了。

Wu Hongliang:
        As far as I see, “Pu” series are of architectural sense. It is true that quite a couple of artists have been inspired by construction elements such as bucket arches, but few like Pan Song could possibly created something with sense of architecture. To be exact, he doesn’t simply adopt part of bucket arches into his works for which would probably resemble much of artistic handicrafts. Instead, he merges his inspiration drawn from architecture into sculpture with his own interpretation. In addition, we all have a dream. Every artist has a dream that is to make a bric-a-brac, that is a shelf sculpture work which is small in size but profound in meaning. Possibly succeed easily. On the contrary, many works are large in scale but blank in nature, which is quite frequently seen especially in shelf sculptures. However, “Pu” series, with their thickness and volume, impress us with strong sense of quality; their three-dimensional space is also impressive. Besides space volume, details are also elaborated on. Just now, Mr. Tang mentioned a reverse thinking mode. Sculptors are supposed to make bozzetto(mud-draft), make castings and so on; however, you assume the reverse thinking mode by curving objects out of the hard materials directly, then sculpting. In this way, handcrafted feeling is aroused to avoid simply creating handicrafts. By hand curving and sculpting, your works tend to be separated from the so-called modern sculptures that merely cut and combine blocks of wood, and to pour something lively into the lifeless process, namely, cutting of steel plates and assembling of columns or cylinders, the way generally adopted by western masters in sculpture. Also your works are endowed with oriental esthetic sentiment, especially, your esteemed charm of Han and Tang Dynasty, which had been the appreciation of beauty adopted by ancient literati ever since Song Dynasty. Now and again, we come across it in your works.

        Chinese tend to make clear what you have created. As far as inheritance is concerned, what on earth has Qi Baishi inherited? He inherited characteristics of Ming and Qing Dynasty, namely, “Green Vine” (Pen name of Xu Wei, a Ming Chinese painter, poet, writer and dramatist famed for his artistic expressiveness, considered founder of modern Chinese painting)Baida Shanren(a Chinese painter of shuimohua and a calligrapher). Obviously, it could be traced back long ago. However, some artists trace back to as early as Song Dynasty. What about Pan Song? What you pursue is the charm dominated in Han and Tang Dynasties, which is earlier before the intellectual consciousness that we’ve been used to, also involved are some untamed nature, some inclusive energy as well as some vigorous power. How to juxtapose your series with today’s modern art with respective images, and how to handle adaptation of new measures are problems with many interesting elements worth exploring.

        I personally believe that, just as Mr. Tang put it, this is a right direction with many opportunities and challenges as well. With seemingly simple combination, how could you create a kaleidoscopic effect? If you can produce a dozen, a score or even thirty pieces of works on the same topic, it indicates that this topic or orientation is inclusive with great adaptation and richness. It all depends on whether you are capable of establishing a whole new system with something like so-called strokes as in Chinese calligraphy. Your success lies in that you have found the right track which will bring out your unique character, which is very oriental and most valuable at present indeed. As the language we adopted today is not oriental in itself, you have tracked out therein the one that is compatible with oriental state in terms of mind, image and pursuit. So you make it.

潘松:
        前些天请二位去工作室看了一下,你们给我提了很多非常有建设性的意见,我这一个月一直在想你们俩说的事,哈哈......对我来说,我个人在雕塑创作上更偏好于造型形式的思考,因为我认为,解决造型问题是解决人对艺术世界的认知的根本的东西之一,当然,思想层面的高下,直接决定作品的水准。对于雕塑来说,没有造型,就没有什么意义。为什么几千年以来我们古代的建筑艺术、雕塑、绘画艺术,包括我们的书法艺术,那么吸引人,我以为,首先是因为它的形状。这么多年,我画素描,做人体,学习解剖,做泥塑,打木雕,打石雕,等等,除了思想的不停滞的信马由缰,其实是对造型艺术奥秘的不断探索。

        回顾我学习的历程,都一直是从西方的雕塑体系的语言里走出来的,我学习了很多的西方雕塑技术,包括我个人在公共艺术领域涉足比较多,对于各种的大型雕塑制作技术手段都比较熟悉了,包括材料的运用,我也做过很多尝试,比如在《霓裳系列》里。我以为,在传统雕塑技术的掌握上,西方雕塑学院式的教育,我获益匪浅。

        到了三十五岁以后,我突然发现,我应该找一些艺术最根本的,我真正想要的东西,能让我沉得进去的肯花功夫的东西,在这几年,我开始理性地反思自己,什么是我真正喜欢的,看来看去,还是觉得我们中国的文化最有意思,越来越吸引人,对我来说,像是刚刚发现的处女地!为什么以前没有考虑到呢?我认为以前自己是不懂,也许是没有把东西都看一遍,或者多尝试几次,前几十年的工作和学习,我认为把这一段落已经走了一遍了,其实根本没有。现在真正对于雕塑语言的热爱,我觉得还是从文化的根本上来谈,它是一种文化的热爱!我们国家这么多好东西,不是象有些人说的过时了,而是根本就不懂,或者说根本没弄明白。

        有时候,我翻一翻古人的书,看看古建,碑帖,甲骨文,各个博物馆走走,总感到有一种东西在和我对话,回到雕塑,它首先是一个造型的问题,那么做什么东西,什么造型,能把自己真正的感觉真实地体现出来,那就是自己特别想要做的东西。在这几年时间,我跑了我们国家多个古建筑、寺院、博物馆,河北的赵州桥,我反复去了很多次,看它的结构,看它的制作,看它的工艺。隋代的东西为什么能做的如此优美,如此的结实,如此的实用,如此的雄壮,如此的魅力无穷......它都占齐了,那我不认为那只是一座桥,我觉得它是非常伟大的雕塑作品!五台山的佛光寺、南禅寺等寺院,我都去看了,记得最清楚的是我第一次到佛光寺,当我爬上台阶,看见大殿的时候,当时我就被打垮了,被大殿巍峨的气场震呆了,当时激动的感觉没有办法用语言说出来的!上世纪九十年代,我上大学时采风,第一次去看乾陵,那时乾陵还没保护呢,乾陵的蹲狮,那个印象是我永远忘不掉的,那是我第一次看到真正的户外雕塑,虽只是一个陵墓雕塑,只是一头蹲狮,但它的威武和雄壮,那种雄踞的磅礴气势,结合着四周荒凉、苍茫和广阔的地势,震撼力量的强大,无异于给人当头棒喝!当时看的后脊梁的寒毛都立起来了!

        我就没想到一个东西,它尺寸也不大,为什么能让我这么激动,我觉得可能是有些东西打动了我,看了佛光寺,包括偏殿那些金代的建筑,用减柱法做的建筑,看完以后,都是让我激动不已。这些感觉一直存在,但是一直没有想到我去干什么,前几年就是一直在看,一直在琢磨,汉唐的艺术作品,汉唐的书法,汉唐的绘画,都是民族文化根源的体现,是由心而发的东西,包括我看了李诫的《营造法式》,它里面很多的绘画,画的都是很奇怪的,透视都不对的,但是就觉得好看,那么我就开始做了这方面的尝试。

        首先,我要解决雕塑的型的问题。佛光寺的唐代斗拱,我觉得很漂亮,赵州桥的燕尾铁榫,也觉得特别漂亮,古代建筑的石材、木头,历经岁月的洗礼而厚重沉稳,但是我也是不知道怎么用,等等......有一天,我在拿着《张迁碑》,乱写乱画的时候,突然之间,就着毛笔画了二十多个方案,一看不错,选了三四个,先着手做了出来,这么开始了尝试,型的问题初步解决,万事开头难,现在我继续着新的构想......

        什么样雕塑,就有什么样的造型,型,体现一种什么精神,有时候是用语言说不清楚的,最后是要上升到一个高度,追寻一种什么样的道,我是在做这方面的探索。在制作的过程中,纯自然的东西,如果拿过来直接用,我觉得它不是艺术品,我就是想着一种人工的再造,经过无数次塑、敲、凿、刻的手工制作,体现一种自然的沧桑感,雄强感,它又有一种制作的趣味在里头,包括空间的无穷变化。我使用这些雕塑的语言,包括肌理的制作,材料的选择,而这些东西对于一件作品最后的精神含量的附加,而使作品近乎,这是我最终追求的目的。我最近一直在琢磨这些事,包括唐兄、洪亮给我的鼓励,也说了这条路虽然很有前途,但是很枯燥,很艰难,很曲折,但是我觉得只要是兴趣所在,它一定是一个值得玩味的东西,在这种尝试中,我感觉到了乐趣,这种乐趣让人很充实,我也一定会在这条路上认认真真地走下去。

Pan Song:
        You two are invited to my studio the other day and offered me quite a lot of constructive suggestions. I’ve been thinking about them in the past month, really, hahaha… Personally, when it comes to sculpture creation, I prefer thinking about molding forms, because I believe it is a matter of basic concept of the artistic world. Truly, the ideological level determines the artistic level. As for sculpture, lack of molding means nothing. Why have our ancient architectural art, sculpture and painting art, as well as our calligraphy been so charming even though thousands of years have elapsed? Firstly, I believe it is because of the form. I’ve spent so many years in sketching, sculpting human bodies, learning anatomy, making clay sculpture, curving wood sculpture, drilling stone sculpture and so on. It is more out of the ceaseless exploration of plastic arts than out of my ceaseless thoughts of letting things taking their natural course.

        Looking back to my studying experiences, I have been stemmed from the western sculpture system which endowed me with plenty of western sculpting skills. My frequent endeavors into public art field enable me to get familiar with techniques and measures necessary for creating large-scale sculpture works. As for the adoption of materials, I have also tried and tested many times as in sculpting “Ni Shang” Series. Thus, when it comes to traditional sculpting skills, I believe western academic education on sculpture have benefited me a lot.

        It dawned on me when I was in my late 30s that I have to seek after something which is fundamentally artistic and which is what I have desired so much that I would readily devote myself to. Consequently, I began reflecting on myself rationally, only to find what I have been keen on is centered on our Chinese culture. Interesting and increasingly attractive, to me, it is more like an untapped “virgin earth”. Why haven’t I considered about it before? It is because that in the past several decades I failed to comprehend and comb at large the Chinese culture, failed to make more attempt at it with the misconception that I have done so. It turns out that the passion for sculpture is basically the passion for certain culture. Our country boasts abundant cultures which are deemed out-dated by some people only because they are ignorant of or fail to comprehend them as a whole.

        Sometimes, while turning pages of ancient books, calling at ancient buildings, studying rubbings from stone inscriptions, having a look at inscriptions on bones or tortoise shells and visiting various museums, I always feel that I seem to strike a conversation with someone there. When it comes to sculpture, what comes first is still the problem of molding. Just follow your heart to make whatever you like, to express your true feelings with certain styles, that’s it. I spent quite a few years visiting ancient buildings, temples and museums. As for Zhaozhou Bridge in Hebei Province, I’ve been there time and again to study its structure, its production and its craftsmanship. I wonder how a bridge made in Sui Dynasty could be so graceful, solid, functional, spectacular, charming, and so on. With so many advantages, it is no longer a bridge in my eyes but a masterpiece of sculpture indeed. I’ve also been to Foguang Temple and Nanchan Temple in Mount Wutai. I still remember the first time I saw Foguang Temple: climbing up the stairs, entering the grand palace, I was instantly overwhelmed by its grandeur and power, unable to speak a word. Another example is in 1990s when I was at college I had been to Qianling Mausoleum which was then in a primitive state. The Squatting Lion there were unforgettable because it was the first time I saw an outdoor sculpture. Even though it was merely a tomb sculpture of squatting lion, its masculine power and tremendous majesty, coupled with its barren and bleak surroundings, was so awesome that I even could feel my hair standing on end.

        How could it be possible to strike me with not that large scale? There must be something there striking. Foguang Temple, and the side halls built in Jin Dynasty, as well as those architectures constructed using less pillars, all impressed me so much with great excitement. Such feelings have accompanied me for years but I failed to make out where to start my work, just spending years watching and pondering. Artistic works in Han and Tang Dynasty, as well as the calligraphy works and paintings in those period, are sources of our nation’s culture, are outpouring of sincere emotions. And I found many interesting pictures in Li Jie’s “Rules of Architecture”; with somewhat odd perspectives, they are anyhow marvelous. Then I decided to have a try.

        What came first was the how to shape the form. The bucket arches of Foguang Temples and the dovetail tenon-and-mortise works of Zhaozhou Bridge are equally gorgeous; those stones, timbers of ancient constructions are weather-beaten but still solid and strong. All of them were scrambling in my head with no clear image to figure out. It so happened that one day when I was sketching with brush aimlessly while reading “Stele of Zhang Qian”, scores of form structures appeared suddenly on the paper, and a couple of them were pretty good and acceptable. In this way, I set my foot on the road. With the first trouble tackled, I began to visualize my works, believing “well begun, half done”.

        Certain sculptures are supposed to be molded in certain style, which embodies some indescribable spirit. How should I upgrade the spirit and how to pursue it are what I’ve been studying. If something natural is adopted directly into my sculpting, it will not be artistic work in my eyes. I deem that it should be kind of artificial re-creation, with numerous handmade work involved like molding, striking, drilling and curving, to display a natural sense of history and grandeur. Also involved are pleasures of creating, for different combinations will turn out different effects which are beyond imagination. Sculpture elements, including texture creating and materials selecting to name a few, are adopted to realize some unique spirit, some style, which is my ultimate goal. Such things have been lingering in my head all the time. You two have encouraged me and kindly reminded me that this is a way which is hopeful, yet boring, hard and twisty, but I still believe it worth trying as long as I am interested in it. During this process, I’ve got much pleasure, which enriched my life, so I will pursue it sincerely.

唐尧:
        我们做雕塑的啊,做到后现代以后,雕塑的范畴变得很宽泛,跟很多其他的方向或方面,比如说现成品啊、装置啊、包括观念艺术啊,发生一些重叠的区域,以至于有些理论家可能觉得进入后现代以后,尤其是进入观念艺术以后,这个视觉形式已经不重要了,甚至有无关视觉之说。

        但是我觉得你是雕塑出身的,做了几十年的雕塑,做出来的东西,还是有一个结实的核心,就是你刚才说的这个造型!我始终认为受过长期雕塑训练的雕塑家,处理是我们的一个特殊能力,就像画画的色彩一样。你拿一块石头或者拿一块木头给一个画画的,你让他给我切个形出来,他切出来那形,我们看着会很散,很弱。第二点就是空间感,这也是我们雕塑家特别敏感的东西。只要我们一动手做东西,它立即会形成一个空间的关系。然后就是材质,我们做多年雕塑,像刚才潘松说的,各种材质都玩过了,这种手工和材质之间的直接对话和交流,它所带出来的感受。这几点是我们受过长年雕塑训练所特别敏锐的方面。你刚才谈的,雕塑没造型就没有意义了,可能那个话也有点极端。但是作为一个受过很多年专业训练的雕塑家,你所坚持的形、空间和材质肌理这样一种语言,我觉得在你现在这个系列里面,就成为了一个坚实的内核。

        在这样一个内核的基础上你所展开的是一个文化精神和哲学精神这样的一个建构。尤其相对于我们今天这个时代,各种信息翻滚得很快,包括艳俗,卡通这样一些方向,可能更被年轻人所喜爱和推崇。在这样一种时尚或者说也有些浮躁的社会前提下,我觉得潘松所走的这条路呢,相对来说是一条比较难走的路,就是说它的基本语言方式是建构的、现代主义的方式,而你的语言背景是上追汉唐的一个文化背景,这个文化背景需要你有深厚的素养,包括临摹汉唐的碑帖,去看能够留下来的建筑,这还是形式上的一个方向,真正你要再往上追,追到我们文化的核心领域去,那还有更深厚的积淀和修养,使你心性上能够更开阔、更活泼、更自由,进入相对永恒的语境。你现在所呈现出来的状态相对来说是艰难的,但是很可贵的,有很长的路给你走。你现在还年轻,书法你可以写一辈子写到老。你这样的一个方向,它有深远的源头,你会在慢慢进入它的时候,随着它的那种程式、法式,进入到它的精神层面,和我们整个宏大的文化融合在一起。这不是即兴来一点小聪明能玩得出来,能够做好的。从这个意义上说,我觉得你在给自己选择一个相对艰难的道路,我也希望你能走得更深远、更广大。

Tang Yao:
        When the concept of sculpture is concerned within the context of postmodernism, it becomes sculpture in a broad sense which overlaps more or less with other artistic field, such as ready-made, installation, or conceptual art. Thus some theorists assume that in the context of postmodernism, especially when conceptual art is ushered in, visual forms have become not that important, even optional or trivial.

        As a sculptor, you have dedicated yourself to sculpting for scores of years, so it is necessary to have a hard core in your works, which is what you put it as molding style. I hold the belief that a well-educated sculptor should be equipped with the capability of molding in certain style, which is much like a painter with the ability of handling colors. Suppose a painter is given a piece of stone or wood to cut, what comes out will probably be something loose in structure and dull in style. What comes next is the sculptors’ sense of space. Whatever we produce will take on a three-dimensional outlook. The third aspect worth mentioning is material texture. During the years of sculpting experiences, we have tried and adopted various materials. The dialogue and communication between hands and textures provide us with amazing feelings. Just now you mentioned that as a sculptor, lack of molding means nothing. It sounds kind of absolute. However, as a well-educated sculptor, you hold fast to such languages as molding style, sense of space and material texture, which turn out to appear naturally in your works as a hard core.

        Based on this hard core, you unfold before us certain spirits of culture and philosophy. Today in our age, information is updated so fast that most youngsters would prefer things of vulgar taste or animation. In such a fashionable and a bit impulsive social background, the road Pan Song has persisted on is comparably hard. While the sculpting language you adopt is constructional and modernistic, the cultural setting you pursue is that of Han and Tang Dynasty, which calls for a profound cultural accomplishment such as copying rubbings from stone inscriptions and studying conserved ancient buildings. If you pursue deep into the essence of our culture where there exists much more profound sediment of cultural heritage, which will in turn broaden your view and mind, make you more robust and liberal, and lead you to a rather eternal setting. You are now in a stage which is hard but deserving, with a long way ahead. You are still young, and practicing calligraphy will accompany you life long. As the orientation you’ve set is far-reaching, you had better fit into the scheme step by step till you reach the spiritual level and become immersed in our glamorous culture. It is definitely no piece of cake. Wish you all the best on this road.

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